Kraglin: “Here ya go, cap’n.”
Yondu:
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yondu udonta
mcu meme – [1/6 objects] | yondu’s yaka arrow
“I don’t use my head to fly the arrow, boy! I use my heart.”
marypoppinswasmyfatherbitches:
marypoppinswasmyfatherbitches:
This James Gunn tweet (from here) has me thinking. Is the sort of abusive behaviour we see from Yondu’s Ravagers common across the whole culture or just from that particular exiled faction?
(ALSO: All other discussion. Have at it.)
This was typed up in response to a post that has since been deleted, which I fully respect, as there was much personal stuff in there. But since I already typed all this up, and kind of like how it sounds…ehh, may as well still send it out into the void. :P
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Firstly, immense sympathy for what you’ve been through. That was tough to read, and makes me want to cry. I have no words. I’m very sorry. :(
In lighter, fictional-related discussion, I totally get what you’re saying. Sometimes fans (myself included, at times) over-deify Yondu. It’s common when a character we’re meant to like dies (hell, it’s common in real life when someone dies, even if they weren’t a saint). And Yondu was no saint. Not at all. He made a lot of fucking mistakes (it’s called redemption arc for a reason, after all).
But I’d disagree on a few points, the first being that he isn’t a “hero.” Maybe this is just semantics over the word. You’re right that he’s not a hero in the traditional sense, in the same way the Guardians are. Hell, in Volume 1 he’s a downright antagonist. But I would say he is a “hero” in by definition he’s done a lot of heroic things he didn’t have to, for someone innocent that he loved. We know in canon that he’s saved Peter at least twice (once in not delivering him to Ego, and last saving him from Ego’s planet explosion resulting in him freezing to death). And it’s implied that he protected/saved him numerous times throughout his upbringing. No matter how tough Peter was, he probably would’ve been killed 100 times over without Yondu keeping an eye on him.
Yondu was wrong to put a kid in so many dangerous situations at all. He was wrong to teach him to steal and be a criminal. He was wrong to threaten to eat him to keep him in line (even as an unclear joke). He was wrong to force him to work for the Ravagers into adulthood. He was wrong to beat him up as a teaching method, and wrong to ever let any other Ravagers physically hurt him. And he was definitely fucking wrong to sick the arrow on him in Volume 1, even if we know he never would have gone through with killing him.
However, and maybe this is my soft, fluffy brain wanting to headcanon him as better than what other fans, or even the movies, are trying to communicate, but I can’t see him as…regularly, extremely abusive. Yes, he beat the shit out of Peter when teaching him how to defend himself, not the best method. And I’m SURE he hit, spanked, smacked him around whenever he got annoying/disobedient. But I don’t imagine it was anywhere on the same level as severe child abusers, or even what the other Ravagers put him through when Yondu wasn’t around, or wrongfully didn’t intervene. Yes, Ravagers are extremely violent and abusive, but even James Gunn here said “Ravagers” and not “Yondu.” Yes, Yondu IS a Ravager, but he’s not a normal Ravager. He is different. He is weird. He’s smarter (i.e. the comedic bit about the crew being unable to figure out math). He collects cute trinkets. He’s a leader, and therefore can make his own rules. He was extremely patient and soft with Groot despite the child being dumb and taking forever to get what they needed. He risked being exiled by his comfortable Ravager family to take on a job delivering children, and did take on the responsibility of raising one of them when he learned he wouldn’t be safe anywhere else. He is in some ways a hero, and is in some ways not your “typical Ravager.”
So yes, he probably WAS more violent than is in any way acceptable, and maybe enough to be classified as “abusive.” But in my opinion, outside of “training sessions,” and times when Peter was being EXCEPTIONALLY bratty, before he was a pre-teen, I cannot picture Yondu giving him weekly beatings just for looking at him funny. I don’t see him as THAT level of sick and cruel. I know he changed a lot over the films, but even back then, he kept Peter because he loved him, and probably showed a lot of restraint against his natural temper in order to spare the boy. I don’t think Peter could have loved and missed Yondu as much as he does if it was the opposite (it’s not like he never knew any different, being previously raised by his mother and grandfather).
I’ll also slightly disagree with the comment that Peter had NO idea Yondu cared until he died. No, I think he had some idea, some suspicion. He had NO idea Yondu thought of him as a son, NO idea the reason he kept him was to protect him from Ego, and NO certainty that he cared. But I think he always suspected “he might care about me a little” when thinking back on happier memories and subtle things Yondu was trying to hide. Peter just didn’t let himself think about it for too long because, “Nah, I’m probably wrong. Of course he hates me. What am I thinking?” But that teeny bit of doubt, that MAYBE he cared a little was probably always there. It just sadly wasn’t confirmed until he died. It’s all so tragic and complicated.
Wow, this got long. Anyway, I agree with your overall points that 1) Peter was abused by the Ravagers, and Yondu should have done more to stop that, 2) Yondu made a shit ton of other really awful parenting decisions that are often forgotten/overlooked by fans, 3) Peter didn’t realize the extent of Yondu’s love until later, and that is largely because of the crappy way Yondu showed it.
But I think Yondu is different from most Ravagers, that there were a LOT of good times, and that he probably was not as physically abusive as…well, the personal stories you shared above. (And he definitely wasn’t fucking Thanos, but no one’s saying that.)
THIS GOT SO DAMN SERIOUS AND SAD AND COMPLICATED, SORRY FOLKS. NONE OF MY DISAGREEMENTS ARE IN ANGER, AND I HOPE THIS WAS RESPECTFUL!
Okay, so for anyone in the great void of Tumblr who might be interested, it was my post. I kind of went off on a tangent and shared a lot of stuff about my childhood abuse and then promptly had a panic attack or three and deleted it. I kinda wish I hadn’t, because there was good stuff in there that maybe I could have used in a better way, but whatever. I had a shit childhood in so very many ways and thus have a complicated abused-kid-kinship with Peter and thus a similarly complicated relationship with Yondu. I tend to come at this from the child perspective and there’s probably a lot of projection going on. I mostly remember the Feels of when I was a kid, and a lot of those Feels were sad and lonely and confused.
So. Long story short, I am in agreement with pretty much everything you’ve said, including that Peter probably did suspect he cared about him a bit, but not that he loved him as a son. My rambling focused a lot on physical and emotional abuse and not a lot on the complicated feelings that come from smacks and slaps being interspersed with special shopping trips and treats and movie nights and laughing our asses off while playing cards at the kitchen table.
I think that’s pretty much the word to sum up Yondu: complicated. He had an incredibly shitty childhood, and tried to give Peter a slightly less shitty childhood but slightly less is still shitty in a lot of ways. He had good intentions but bad execution due to lack of experience, the life he led, the society he had to exist in. Peter’s relationship with Yondu is equally complicated by all those things compounded with the fact that he was a sensitive kid with a perfectly good family waiting to take care of him on Earth and instead was kidnapped by weird ass aliens who threatened to eat him and pounded on him until he could fight back. Instead of love and affection and nurturing, he got indifference and abuse. And probably a bit of affection in there given in its own weird way, and plenty of happy times between the bad.
But my issue is that fandom seems to like to ignore the beatings (and lack of stopping beatings), and the lonely, sad, scared little kid who needed a hug and comfort and never got it, because Yondu was a hero at the end.
I think that’s pretty much the word to sum up Yondu: complicated. He had an incredibly shitty childhood, and tried to give Peter a slightly less shitty childhood but slightly less is still shitty in a lot of ways. He had good intentions but bad execution due to lack of experience, the life he led, the society he had to exist in. Peter’s relationship with Yondu is equally complicated by all those things compounded with the fact that he was a sensitive kid with a perfectly good family waiting to take care of him on Earth and instead was kidnapped by weird ass aliens who threatened to eat him and pounded on him until he could fight back. Instead of love and affection and nurturing, he got indifference and abuse. And probably a bit of affection in there given in its own weird way, and plenty of happy times between the bad.
1,000% spot on. In full agreement with you here. I think a lot of my response was was “ehhh, doesn’t entirely sit right with me” in some of your phrasing, but that’s not at all important. I got the fact that we were generally on the same page, and even if we weren’t, differences of opinions are kewl!
But my issue is that fandom seems to like to ignore the beatings (and lack of stopping beatings), and the lonely, sad, scared little kid who needed a hug and comfort and never got it, because Yondu was a hero at the end.
That’s totally fair. It’s fun to just think about the…well, fun stuff in these silly comedy movies, but when it comes to serious analysis, we should acknowledge there were a lot of mistakes and horrible times in our main character’s childhood. Peter had to grow up fast, and even if that was mostly because of the harsher Ravagers, Yondu didn’t always help things. His being a hero at the end is extremely touching and I think redeems him beautifully, but doesn’t change the past or how fucking complicated this all is.
I do like to headcanon that, because he is so grateful for the sacrifice and so furious with Ego, Peter does probably view a lot of his memories with Yondu as rose-colored, in a similar way as he would view a lot of them too negatively before. It may be impossible for him to ever get that unbiased, balanced perspective we the fans can interpret.
You know… I don’t necessarily see Yondu as a hero hero, because of all the above and more. (I think he would probably refute the label too, had he lived to hear it.) But –
– ah sod it, I’ll drop my favourite Marvel quote of all time in here. From Ms Marvel, “Good is not a thing you are, it’s a thing you do.” S’such a good line to illustrate an redemption arc.
This James Gunn tweet (from here) has me thinking. Is the sort of abusive behaviour we see from Yondu’s Ravagers common across the whole culture or just from that particular exiled faction?
(ALSO: All other discussion. Have at it.)
My guess would be that the Stakar/Aleta/etc. factions aren’t THAT much better about it. Yondu’s group was probably unusually dysfunctional because he was stuck with the rejects and the ones who were drawn to a life outside Stakar’s slightly-more-ethical organization, but they ARE still space pirates. And it’s very different coming into that life as an adult who already had a rough past and a well-honed ability to defend yourself, and coming in as a young child. I don’t think growing up on any of their ships would result in a healthy, non-abusive upbringing.
(my 2 cents, etc; feel free to disagree)
I mean, even Groot’s current upbringing with the Guardians involves a lot of casual child endangerment, and the og Ravagers have been described bts as even more anti-heroic, so. My thought is that the Captains might individually be pretty good to children, better at emotions, AND their sway over their crew is probably less fragile than Yondu’s, but the crew members in general are probably still pretty chequered characters, and nobody would have much sense of what a ‘normal’ childhood should be like. I do think Peter would have been significantly better off if Yondu had still been part of the fleet, but it wouldn’t have been ideal regardless.
Yeah, that’s what I’m mainly thinking – not maliciousness so much as casual child endangerment + very little idea of what a “normal” childhood is like. With maybe a side order of a) having some genuinely awful people in the crew (while I don’t think Stakar, Aleta, etc.’s crews are quite AS awful as Yondu’s, they’re still pirates) and b) having a lot of people around who aren’t really used to kids and therefore would get impatient, perhaps violently so, with kids doing normal kid things.
… I mean, imagine having an 8-year-old raised by a band of mercenaries on Earth, even. They might try, and even do their best, but most of them would be people who would be inured to violence and probably had pretty shitty childhoods themselves, plus it would be an inherently dangerous place to keep a kid because of what they did for a living.
S’funny you should mention that last point because I ended up basing a lot of my Ravager headcanons on what historical pirates were reportedly like (uh, maybe toned down a bit though). Apparently it wasn’t entirely unusual for pirate captains to keep boys from seized ships and let them tag along as part of the crew. After all, they were… yep… small enough to be good for thieving. But they were paid, and were treated about as well as could be expected, as far as I can tell.
So I wonder if Peter’s childhood was like that, maybe a bit better – he does include Yondu in his fond memories montage, after all, and like people have pointed out in the past he’s not actually afraid of Yondu the way you’d expect –
– but on the other hand, piracy was a nasty hard life filled with nasty hard people, so.
This James Gunn tweet (from here) has me thinking. Is the sort of abusive behaviour we see from Yondu’s Ravagers common across the whole culture or just from that particular exiled faction?
(ALSO: All other discussion. Have at it.)