Actually that list of Things Mary Jane Watson Did In The Spider-Man Films Other Than Being Kidnapped deserves a post of its own-
Defends Peter against the bullies at school (one of whom is her boyfriend) on more than one occasion.
When
cornered by men in an alley (a scene I could have done without, but
let’s go with it) kicks and hits them. Side note: it would not have
mattered, nor made her responsible for the men’s actions, had
she not.
Is in a relationship with Flash that’s clearly sucking for her. She breaks up with him. No-one rescues her, she does it herself. Same side-note applies, just replace ‘men’ with ‘Flash’.
Is in an abusive situation at home. She leaves home. No-one rescues her, she does it herself. Same side-note also applies.
Does a terrible job to make ends meet. Clearly hates it but carries on. (This is an achievement. Don’t fight me on that one.)
Achieves her dream of acting on stage, even if only for a short while.
Models on billboards all over NYC
On
being fired from her dream job, continues to work as a singer (i.e.
she’s not giving up on her ambitions). Is clearly good at it.
Whacks Venom in head. He had it coming.
This is my favorite post ever.
She also visits her loved ones in the hospital when they’re hurt (she brings Aunt May flowers, she hurries to Harry’s side) which shows her capacity to love others and not be closed off, and her capacity to forgive when it comes to Harry.
She also spends Spiderman 2 contemplating whether she wants to marry John Jameson, which isn’t treated like a silly girl decision, but a choice she must make to be happy. She leaves Jameson and shows up in Peter’s doorway, making a proclamation of love and continuing to put herself out there and fight for what she wants, even if Peter rejects her. She made that decision for her.
And it should not be overlooked that in Spiderman, after being thrown off a bridge and flung around, she climbs down Peter’s web to safety even though she’s scared because he isn’t able to fight Goblin and get her down to safety.
Actually that list of Things Mary Jane Watson Did In The Spider-Man Films Other Than Being Kidnapped deserves a post of its own-
Defends Peter against the bullies at school (one of whom is her boyfriend) on more than one occasion.
When
cornered by men in an alley (a scene I could have done without, but
let’s go with it) kicks and hits them. Side note: it would not have
mattered, nor made her responsible for the men’s actions, had
she not.
Is in a relationship with Flash that’s clearly sucking for her. She breaks up with him. No-one rescues her, she does it herself. Same side-note applies, just replace ‘men’ with ‘Flash’.
Is in an abusive situation at home. She leaves home. No-one rescues her, she does it herself. Same side-note also applies.
Does a terrible job to make ends meet. Clearly hates it but carries on. (This is an achievement. Don’t fight me on that one.)
Achieves her dream of acting on stage, even if only for a short while.
Models on billboards all over NYC
On
being fired from her dream job, continues to work as a singer (i.e.
she’s not giving up on her ambitions). Is clearly good at it.
bugger off. mary jane had the BEST female character treatment out of all the marvel films, and natasha was…
Look, I like MJ in the comics, all right? In the comics, she’s just fine. I just despise what they did with her in those movies. It was obvious that her only purpose as a character was to be the hero’s girlfriend and constantly get into trouble so Spider-Man had someone to save. Not only that, but she spent the entire trilogy being mopey and lovesick and not like any version of MJ that I recognize.
“Let’s also acknowledge that Mary Jane is a TEENAGER in the first Spiderman film, and not much older in the sequels”
You want to play that card? Okay. How about Gwen Stacey, then? In the Amazing Spider-Man film, Gwen was a teenager, about the same age as MJ in the movies you’re defending. And yet, in that movie, Gwen is given a lot more respect. There’s one scene where Gwen is in danger from the Lizard and Spider-Man isn’t around to save her, so she gets herself out of trouble. Then, during the fight in the high school, Spider-Man is in danger from the Lizard and Gwen actually saves him.
Sure, Gwen needs to be saved herself sometimes, but that’s not the only reason she’s there. She’s not 100% reliant on the hero to save her every time there’s a crisis. Sometimes she can save herself, other times she can save the hero. Am I wrong for thinking that that is really fucking cool?
Now if Gwen can be like that? Why can’t MJ? Because that’s not what MJ was there for.
“While Mary Jane being kidnapped is a cliche plot device that is used in all three Spidey films, it’s also used frequently throughout the MCU…”
Not really. Pepper Potts helps defeat the villain in Ironman and kills the villain herself in Ironman 3. Jane Foster at least gets to make meaningful contributions to the Thor films with her scientific know-how. Agent 33 helps fight the Hydra goons in CA:TWS. Black Widow is one of the most bad-ass fighters on a team full of men with super powers in the Avengers films despite being captured at one point in AOU. In Daredevil, Karen Page needs to saved a couple times, but also [SPOILER] gets herself out of danger when kidnapped by Fisk’s henchman. All these women sometimes need help or need to be saved, yes, but they’re also given a lot more respect and allowed to be more proactive in those films than MJ ever was.
“…(and almost every other superhero film EVER), which is more a criticism of society and media than these characters because REPEAT AFTER ME a woman being kidnapped by some kind of villainous psychopath is not her fault and is not a lack of character or strength on her part.”
I agree. But the fact remains that this was essentially MJ’s only real function in those movies, which is why I didn’t like her.
“Not only does Mary Jane have the courage to yell at Doc Oc and demand her release, and the bravery to climb down Peter’s web to safety while hundreds of feet up…”
When did I ever say that MJ was cowardly in those films? I didn’t. I said she was a damsel in distress who constantly needed the hero to save her, which is true. Sure, she yelled at Doc Oc. So what? That doesn’t change the fact that she was still helpless and needed the hero to save her from Doc Oc. Same thing with the Goblin. Same thing with Venom/Sandman.
“…but she is active in ALL THREE SPIDERMAN FILMS. Maybe you haven’t seen them in a while (or possibly ever, judging by your shitty misogynistic bullcrap??)”
Your argument is that she appeared in all three films? Okay? What does this prove exactly?
“In Spiderman, when men attack Mary Jane in an alleyway, she fights them, hitting them with her bag, punching one, kicking one in the balls”
Yeah, she does. It was a nice moment. One of her few good moments in those movies. Then she needed Spider-Man to save her from them.
If the movies had stopped with the MJ-in-danger cliche at that point, I would have been fine with it. But then she gets captured, kidnapped, threatened, used as bate, etc. over and over and over again afterward, and I just got sick of it because the character essentially had no real purpose beyond that.
“In Spiderman 2, despite having had like THE WORST DAY Mary Jane still has the audacity to pick up a stick and try to hit Doc Ock to rescue Spiderman because tbh he’s being pretty rude”
And then Doc Oc pwns her, taking away her stick without even bothering to turn around because she poses zero threat to him and he knows it, in a moment played for laughs.
“And lastly, my favorite moment comes in Spiderman 3, when Spiderman is about to die, and Mary Jane is resourceful enough (with whoa amazing good aim) to drop a fucking cinderblock on Venom’s head, which allows Spidey to escape”
She dropped a cinderblock on a bad guy directly beneath her after getting kidnapped/captured/held hostage by every villain in the series. So it only took her 3 movies to finally do something useful. Huzzah. So is that enough to redeem the numerous other times she got into trouble and could do nothing but wait for Spider-Man to bail her out?
“Natasha Romanoff is a fabulous character, but guess who’s also amazing and fabulous and STRONG AS HELL after having grown up abused by her father, and being told she’s worthless? Who’s had the courage to chase her dreams, and support her friends, and try her best? Who loves Peter for his flaws and all, but also demands respect and isn’t going to be neglected? MARY JANE WATSON.”
I agree. That doesn’t change the fact that she needs to be saved constantly because her primary purpose in those movies was to be put in danger so Spider-Man had a pretty girl to save in the third act.
“Mary Jane shows us that women can achieve their dreams with hard work.”
How? I seem to recall that her dream was to act on stage. Then she gets a part in some play, gets horrible reviews and winds up singing in some crappy nightclub by the end of the series.
“Mary Jane shows us that you don’t have to have superpowers or special training to be a worthwhile character.”
I still fail to see how MJ was a worthwhile character in those movies for all the reasons I stated previously.
“Mary Jane shows us that it’s okay to need help, and Mary Jane shows us that, however small it is, any help you can give is worthwhile. Mary Jane is a great character and I will defend her ‘til the death.”
Cool. You do that. I’ll stick with comics!MJ while I wait for Marvel studios to introduce a version of her character into the MCU that’s more tolerable than this one was.
OH GOD NO don’t watch the Nostalgia Critic talk about those films. It’s a load of inaccurate, sexist nonsense. I mean, he counts ‘dated every man in these films’ as a point against her. It’s slut-shamy and kinda gross. Because even used against a fictional woman, it’s a pretty good indication of what people think of real women who have too much sex. (see also: the Taylor Swift effect.)
…I judge people for believing that crap. I wish I didn’t, but I do.
Read this instead! And this! And this! And this, actually. And then consider this point I just thought of: okay, folks hate Mary Jane for getting kidnapped a bunch. I disagree with that SO MUCH, because showing helpless females not being thought less of for being helpless is important and yadda yadda yadda everything I said yesterday. But why aren’t people hating Norman Osborn, the guy who was a creep to her, kidnapped her from her bed, dangled her off a bridge and had plans to kill her slowly and horribly? I mean, if we’re looking at these characters as being Actual People (are we? I don’t know) he’s, er…slightly more intolerable than her. In other words, if you’re going to blame Mary Jane for being kidnapped a lot, the actual kidnappers are gonna also have to be blamed at some point.
Also, because I have nothing better to do, here’s a list of all the stuff Mary Jane achieves in the three movies she’s in. None of them are terribly important or big things, but if we’re assuming that in the context of this conversation Mary Jane is a real person, they must have been incredibly important to her:
Is in a relationship with Flash that’s clearly sucking for her. She breaks up with him.
Is in an abusive situation at home. She leaves home.
Defends Peter against the bullies at school, on more than one occasion.
Does a terrible job to make ends meet. Clearly hates it but carries on. (This is an achievement. Don’t fight me on that one.)
When cornered by men in an alley (a scene I could have done without, but let’s go with it) kicks and hits them. Side note: it would not have mattered, nor made her any less responsible for the men’s actions, had she not.
Achieves her dream of acting on stage, even if only for a short while.
Models on billboards all over NYC
On being fired from her dream job, continues to work as a singer (i.e. she’s not giving up on her ambitions). Is clearly good at it.
bugger off. mary jane had the BEST female character treatment out of all the marvel films, and natasha was royally screwed over in age of ultron.
physically beating bad guys up has nothing to do with being a strong character.
Well, being completely helpless in the face of danger and constantly getting kidnapped by super villains in every single movie in the series just so the hero has a pretty girl to save in the third act sure as hell has nothing to do with being one. And I’m kind of baffled that you would think it does, so I’m going to go ahead and assume that was sarcasm on your part.
*cracks knuckles* Okay, leaving Natasha out of the equation for a minute –
Being helpless in the face of danger isn’t remotely a bad thing, and I really wish people would stop equating ‘good female character’ with ‘strength’. I love characters who aren’t strong, who aren’t kickass, who don’t get to land the hit, etc etc. “How do they react when put in danger” should not be the be-all and end-all of who and what a female character is. (It’s not like it is for male characters, after all.) It’s like how this very good post says –
“I’d rather have works centering on Pepper’s kidnaping and forcible
injection of Extremis than another gifset of her fresh from the flames,
not because I want to romanticize her pain or devalue her strength but
because I’m wary of romanticizing her strength and devaluing her pain.
Pain is how we connect to characters. Their suffering and their mistakes
are what make them dynamic, and interacting with the difficulties of
these characters’ lives is what creates a vibrant fandom.“
I absolutely adore Mary Jane’s character in the Spider-Man films (and the comics, although that’s not what we’re talking about here) and I’ve written before about, well, her pain. I feel Natasha’s pain as well, don’t get me wrong, but I’m far, far more likely to deal with the minor pains in life like being fired from jobs I badly want or hiding the ‘low’ jobs I don’t want than I am likely to face the horrors of being a reformed child assassin. Mary Jane’s not a Hero with a capital H, and sometimes she’s not even a very nice person, but she’s not punished for this.
(no, I don’t think the three separate kidnappings really count as punishment, as she emerges from them all unscathed, and doesn’t even seem that fazed by the third time, taking action to save Peter from Venom and managing pretty okay, by most non-superpowered standards, on her own. And by the end of the third movie, Harry is the one fridged for the sake of Peter’s character development, not her.)
How the narrative of Spider-Man reacts to Mary Jane being treated misogynistically is interesting, too. When Norman Osborn first leers at MJ’s chest when he meets her and then calls her a gold-digger in front of everyone, (’You think a girl like that’s sniffing around because she likes your personality?’) we’re supposed to empathize with her as she storms off almost in tears. And here’s a very key point on where MJ and Natasha differ: Natasha is also treated misogynistically – Loki calls her a mewling quim, those dudes at the beginning of Avengers call her just a pretty face, etc etc – but whenever that happens she turns the tables on them, defeats them, beats them up. And that’s good, honestly – displays of female power against sexism are always good –
– but not everyone can live up to that standard. And that’s also fine. All MJ can do is yell at the men who let her down, or try her hardest not to let the abuse she suffered as a child affect her life and career, or drop a concrete block on Venom’s head just as he starts talking about her and Gwen Stacy like they’re the property of men. (Natasha would applaud that action, I am sure.)
In other words, yes, Mary Jane needs to be saved a lot. Going from a purely Watsonian perspective here – her life and the people she hangs out with put her in a lot of danger. She’s not kickass, she’s not powerful, and (here’s the kicker) she’s exclusively a victim of men. Her father is seen emotionally abusing her, and even two movies later this is seen to have had a huge affect on her life. (As it should, because that’s how it works in real life.) Norman/Green Goblin kidnaps her to get to Peter and taunts him about how he’ll kill her ‘nice and slow’, because (as we’ve already established) movieverse Norman is a huge misogynist. Eddie/Venom also kidnaps her for misogynistic reasons – he thinks that because Peter ‘stole’ Gwen from him (Gwen being a woman who actually has no interest in either of them) murdering Peter’s own girlfriend in front of him is an appropriate revenge. (The only supervillain who doesn’t really fall into this pattern is Doc Ock, and it’s probably not a coincidence that’s he’s the most sympathetically treated.) MJ’s also a victim of Peter in the third movie, when he gets possessed by the Venom symbothingy and shoves her down to the floor.
Actually, yeah, you know what? MJ’s a victim. Even without the supervillains around, she’d still be a victim. Her father abused her, Flash Thompson was a jerk to her, Norman (in his regular non-supervillain persona) is both sexist and classist to her, even Peter isn’t a model of good behaviour to her either. (It’s not for nothing that she calls him out for not letting her make her own choices.) She’s a victim, victim, victim. And yet by the end of the series, she’s still standing, still swinging, still singing even.
Natasha and MJ are both victims, but just because Natasha was granted the power to defeat her oppressors doesn’t make MJ any less of a character for not having that power. Whirling this back around to the beginning again, being helpless in the face of danger (as most of us are) is – well, it can be a really important thing to show a woman being. Because not all of us will ever be able to respond to misogynists/danger/supervillains with strength, and for obvious reasons it’s very important that a woman in real life isn’t expected to do that.
Being a victim and coming out of it stronger is a good narrative. But being a victim and coming out of it just okay is a good narrative too. If someone’s saying one’s inherently better than the other, what’s that saying about how we actually perceive female strength?
I’m kind of baffled, etc etc. Also, Natasha would have loved Mary Jane.
I kinda of wonder if even when he thought she was a flake and when she wasn’t sure about hanging out with him, if MJ and Peter ever connected over their working class backgrounds. Especially given the fact they were both dating affluent people at the same time, who even if probably didn’t mean to be, were probably not as sentative to their money problems as they could have been
And don’t even get me started on Spider-Man 3, which is not a good movie, but which has an INCREDIBLE arc for Mary Jane. Seriously, watch what Kirsten Dunst gets to play in Spider-Man 3—professional frustration, failure, desperation, suspicions that the man she loves has become a very different person even before an alien symbiote gives him bad hair—and ask yourself how many actresses in superhero movies since 2007 have gotten even half that.
