bugger off. mary jane had the BEST female character treatment out of all the marvel films, and natasha was…
Look, I like MJ in the comics, all right? In the comics, she’s just fine. I just despise what they did with her in those movies. It was obvious that her only purpose as a character was to be the hero’s girlfriend and constantly get into trouble so Spider-Man had someone to save. Not only that, but she spent the entire trilogy being mopey and lovesick and not like any version of MJ that I recognize.
“Let’s also acknowledge that Mary Jane is a TEENAGER in the first Spiderman film, and not much older in the sequels”
You want to play that card? Okay. How about Gwen Stacey, then? In the Amazing Spider-Man film, Gwen was a teenager, about the same age as MJ in the movies you’re defending. And yet, in that movie, Gwen is given a lot more respect. There’s one scene where Gwen is in danger from the Lizard and Spider-Man isn’t around to save her, so she gets herself out of trouble. Then, during the fight in the high school, Spider-Man is in danger from the Lizard and Gwen actually saves him.
Sure, Gwen needs to be saved herself sometimes, but that’s not the only reason she’s there. She’s not 100% reliant on the hero to save her every time there’s a crisis. Sometimes she can save herself, other times she can save the hero. Am I wrong for thinking that that is really fucking cool?
Now if Gwen can be like that? Why can’t MJ? Because that’s not what MJ was there for.
“While Mary Jane being kidnapped is a cliche plot device that is used in all three Spidey films, it’s also used frequently throughout the MCU…”
Not really. Pepper Potts helps defeat the villain in Ironman and kills the villain herself in Ironman 3. Jane Foster at least gets to make meaningful contributions to the Thor films with her scientific know-how. Agent 33 helps fight the Hydra goons in CA:TWS. Black Widow is one of the most bad-ass fighters on a team full of men with super powers in the Avengers films despite being captured at one point in AOU. In Daredevil, Karen Page needs to saved a couple times, but also [SPOILER] gets herself out of danger when kidnapped by Fisk’s henchman. All these women sometimes need help or need to be saved, yes, but they’re also given a lot more respect and allowed to be more proactive in those films than MJ ever was.
“…(and almost every other superhero film EVER), which is more a criticism of society and media than these characters because REPEAT AFTER ME a woman being kidnapped by some kind of villainous psychopath is not her fault and is not a lack of character or strength on her part.”
I agree. But the fact remains that this was essentially MJ’s only real function in those movies, which is why I didn’t like her.
“Not only does Mary Jane have the courage to yell at Doc Oc and demand her release, and the bravery to climb down Peter’s web to safety while hundreds of feet up…”
When did I ever say that MJ was cowardly in those films? I didn’t. I said she was a damsel in distress who constantly needed the hero to save her, which is true. Sure, she yelled at Doc Oc. So what? That doesn’t change the fact that she was still helpless and needed the hero to save her from Doc Oc. Same thing with the Goblin. Same thing with Venom/Sandman.
“…but she is active in ALL THREE SPIDERMAN FILMS. Maybe you haven’t seen them in a while (or possibly ever, judging by your shitty misogynistic bullcrap??)”
Your argument is that she appeared in all three films? Okay? What does this prove exactly?
“In Spiderman, when men attack Mary Jane in an alleyway, she fights them, hitting them with her bag, punching one, kicking one in the balls”
Yeah, she does. It was a nice moment. One of her few good moments in those movies. Then she needed Spider-Man to save her from them.
If the movies had stopped with the MJ-in-danger cliche at that point, I would have been fine with it. But then she gets captured, kidnapped, threatened, used as bate, etc. over and over and over again afterward, and I just got sick of it because the character essentially had no real purpose beyond that.
“In Spiderman 2, despite having had like THE WORST DAY Mary Jane still has the audacity to pick up a stick and try to hit Doc Ock to rescue Spiderman because tbh he’s being pretty rude”
And then Doc Oc pwns her, taking away her stick without even bothering to turn around because she poses zero threat to him and he knows it, in a moment played for laughs.
“And lastly, my favorite moment comes in Spiderman 3, when Spiderman is about to die, and Mary Jane is resourceful enough (with whoa amazing good aim) to drop a fucking cinderblock on Venom’s head, which allows Spidey to escape”
She dropped a cinderblock on a bad guy directly beneath her after getting kidnapped/captured/held hostage by every villain in the series. So it only took her 3 movies to finally do something useful. Huzzah. So is that enough to redeem the numerous other times she got into trouble and could do nothing but wait for Spider-Man to bail her out?
“Natasha Romanoff is a fabulous character, but guess who’s also amazing and fabulous and STRONG AS HELL after having grown up abused by her father, and being told she’s worthless? Who’s had the courage to chase her dreams, and support her friends, and try her best? Who loves Peter for his flaws and all, but also demands respect and isn’t going to be neglected? MARY JANE WATSON.”
I agree. That doesn’t change the fact that she needs to be saved constantly because her primary purpose in those movies was to be put in danger so Spider-Man had a pretty girl to save in the third act.
“Mary Jane shows us that women can achieve their dreams with hard work.”
How? I seem to recall that her dream was to act on stage. Then she gets a part in some play, gets horrible reviews and winds up singing in some crappy nightclub by the end of the series.
“Mary Jane shows us that you don’t have to have superpowers or special training to be a worthwhile character.”
I still fail to see how MJ was a worthwhile character in those movies for all the reasons I stated previously.
“Mary Jane shows us that it’s okay to need help, and Mary Jane shows us that, however small it is, any help you can give is worthwhile. Mary Jane is a great character and I will defend her ‘til the death.”
Cool. You do that. I’ll stick with comics!MJ while I wait for Marvel studios to introduce a version of her character into the MCU that’s more tolerable than this one was.
OH GOD NO don’t watch the Nostalgia Critic talk about those films. It’s a load of inaccurate, sexist nonsense. I mean, he counts ‘dated every man in these films’ as a point against her. It’s slut-shamy and kinda gross. Because even used against a fictional woman, it’s a pretty good indication of what people think of real women who have too much sex. (see also: the Taylor Swift effect.)
…I judge people for believing that crap. I wish I didn’t, but I do.
Read this instead! And this! And this! And this, actually. And then consider this point I just thought of: okay, folks hate Mary Jane for getting kidnapped a bunch. I disagree with that SO MUCH, because showing helpless females not being thought less of for being helpless is important and yadda yadda yadda everything I said yesterday. But why aren’t people hating Norman Osborn, the guy who was a creep to her, kidnapped her from her bed, dangled her off a bridge and had plans to kill her slowly and horribly? I mean, if we’re looking at these characters as being Actual People (are we? I don’t know) he’s, er…slightly more intolerable than her. In other words, if you’re going to blame Mary Jane for being kidnapped a lot, the actual kidnappers are gonna also have to be blamed at some point.
Also, because I have nothing better to do, here’s a list of all the stuff Mary Jane achieves in the three movies she’s in. None of them are terribly important or big things, but if we’re assuming that in the context of this conversation Mary Jane is a real person, they must have been incredibly important to her:
Is in a relationship with Flash that’s clearly sucking for her. She breaks up with him.
Is in an abusive situation at home. She leaves home.
Defends Peter against the bullies at school, on more than one occasion.
Does a terrible job to make ends meet. Clearly hates it but carries on. (This is an achievement. Don’t fight me on that one.)
When cornered by men in an alley (a scene I could have done without, but let’s go with it) kicks and hits them. Side note: it would not have mattered, nor made her any less responsible for the men’s actions, had she not.
Achieves her dream of acting on stage, even if only for a short while.
Models on billboards all over NYC
On being fired from her dream job, continues to work as a singer (i.e. she’s not giving up on her ambitions). Is clearly good at it.
