Nobody ever speak ill of Mickey Smith in my presence ever again.
Now this, this is character development
I dunno… it’s from the novelisation of the episode Rose, so I’m not sure I’d call it character development so much as “stuff RTD should’ve put in from the start.” Maybe it’s RTD’s writing development. I don’t know. Somebody help me
It’s not that I think Moffat isn’t at times “problematic” it’s that I think he gets a disproportionate amount of shit when RTD gets aways with being just as bad but somehow it’s okay when he does it and we’re supposed to wish he’d return and make the show and fandom magical and perfect again.
I know that some of it’s just timing – for instance “Marthagate” in 2007 were in a fandom that had yet to be hit by and adapt to the Racefail moment of 2009 and oh fuck is that glaring when we look back upon it now. Fandom is more… well, more aware and also more virtul-signalling in some instances, but the point is that we have words for these things now. Whereas in 2006 (was it?) we just had to roll our eyes when RTD told us that the Doctor could never be a woman because (paraphrasing as this is from memory) “children would wonder where his willy had gone to.” The Owen-from-Torchwood rape-spray thing, or the “hey why don’t I make the first female black companion be explicitly second-best to a departed white girl?” or the HILARITY of Donna thinking she might have “womanly wiles”, etc, etc… I do think at least some of that would have gotten more annoyed traction in fandom if it had happened a few years later.
But even so, it bugs the shit out of me when people act like Rusty never put a foot wrong and everything was lovely and progressive until That Damn Misogynist came along to ruin everything. It’s a weird version of history that makes no sense to me probably just because it’s a load of balls.
There was that time he called the people angry about how Ianto’s death fell into the ‘bury your gays’ trope “nine hysterical women” as well, which I think would’ve put a huge dent in his reputation if it’d happened in the Twitter age. (As it stands, it’s virtually forgotten.)
And him letting transphobia pop up in Torchwood, from the mouth of Jack no less.
That seems like a reasonable request. I doubt that line was intended to be offensive, but oh yikes.
Russell turned into a very good trans ally sometime between
2008 and now, as made obvious by refusing to move forward with Banana until Bethany Black was cast and Banana being very positive representation, but given he specifically wrote ‘humorous’ supplementary material about Cassandra’s multiple transitions it was either supposed to be deliberately offensive or he didn’t consider that trans people would be watching at all. We’d also like an apology for his 2008 disaster ‘I think it would introduce genitalia to family viewing’ when talking about the prospect of a female Doctor.I actually went to a convention about LGBT themes and representation in Doctor Who, and RTD was there. A trans fan raised the issue of Cassandra, and Russell did apologise for the hurt caused by the character, which he didn’t intend but regrets.
Oooh, that’s good.
honestly……… no more clara references……… that’s enough……………
And he could have literally reminisced about the fact that he did that to donna. it hurt him a lot a you know. Just for one second he realised how wiping Bill’s memories would affect him – can you imagine him having to go through all that again? I swear to shit when Bill told him to think about how he would feel, he literally thought about this exchange
“Donna I was just going”
“Yeah. see ya.”
i mean knowing moffat, he simply refuses make references to things that he didn’t create, so
but honestly that would’ve been a great Donna flashback.
Bill keeps begging him to not wipe her memory, and all of a sudden we flash to black and white, back to that moment between Donna and Ten, with no audio other than Bill’s pleads as the scene of Donna’s own pleads plays out.
we flash back to our current moment, and the Doctor quickly pulls his hands back. “get out”, he says quietly, trying not to let it known that his voice is quavering.
to be fair, the line was “imagine how you’d feel if someone did this to you”, as in if you had your memory wiped, so honestly clara’s theme did fit better than donna’s moment
im also convinced that for him to have considered wiping bill’s memory in the first place he had to have been blocking donna or something
actually, it doesn’t fit the situation better.
if my memory serves correct, twelves memory wipe was consensual, while donna’s was not. twelve wanted to wipe bill’s memory, and she begged him not to, much like how donna begged the doctor not to do the same.
and even when she says, “imagine how you’d feel if someone did this to you”, he CAN’T remember his own memory wipe, he DOESN’T remember it. so that moment was just to tug at the heartstrings of the viewers, and he doesn’t have the memory of clara and his own memory wipe in order to use that experience in order to decide not to wipe her memory. it JUST BARELY makes sense, if that moment truly makes sense at all.
it would have made much more sense if bill had continued to beg him to not wipe her memory, and the doctor had remembered how donna had begged the same, and how badly wiping her memory hurt him, which would make him decide against wiping bill’s memory.
so it’s an example of the situation not truly fitting, moffat refusing to callback to anything that isn’t 100% of his creation and/or design, and moffat not really making any sense.
12 does remember that his memory was wiped.
When something goes missing, you can always recreate it by the hole it left. I know her name was Clara. I know we travelled together. I know that there was an Ice Warrior on a submarine and a mummy on the Orient Express. I know we sat together in the Cloisters and she told me something very important, but I have no idea what she said. Or what she looked like. Or how she talked. Or laughed. There’s nothing there. Just nothing.
He knows what it feels like to be missing something.
Whereas if he’d been comparing the situation to Journey’s End, he would’ve wiped her mind anyway then found some rain to feel sorry for himself in.
“Moffat refuses to reference things he didn’t create” is a really fucking weird thing to say about an episode that prominently features a photograph of Susan
Not to mention the Movellans, all the old sonic screwdrivers on his desk, and the out of order sign on the TARDIS.
All the callbacks Moffat has done that I can remember:
- Holograms of all the past Doctors in the very first episode Moffat did as showrunner
- Picture of the First Doctor on the Doctor’s ID card in Vampires of Venice
- Holograms of Rose, Martha and Donna in Let’s Kill Hitler
- Clara splitting herself in order to save all the previous Doctors, which formed the entire plot of The Name of the Doctor and featured Clara superimposed into old footage, rather a lot of effort to go to
- Wall of past companions featured in Day of the Doctor
- ….Most of what happened in Day of the Doctor, including appearances from all past Doctors, albeit sometimes badly CGIed
- The relationship between the Doctor and Elizabeth I, something RTD created
- Reference in Time of the Doctor to a Third Doctor story (”nicked it off the Master in the Death Zone.”)
- A variety of past Daleks (god, don’t ask me to name them all) seen in Asylum of the Daleks and The Witch’s Familiar
- The First Doctor and Fourth Doctor seen in The Witch’s Familiar
- Osgood’s Fourth Doctor scarf
- Osgood’s question-mark shirt
- Osgood’s surname
- The references to where the Twelfth Doctor got his face
- The Eleventh Doctor speaking in the Fourth Doctor’s voice in The Almost People
- The Twelfth Doctor speaking in the Fourth Doctor’s voice in Mummy on the Orient Express
- Reference to Sarah Jane in Under the Lake (”I should have known you didn’t live in Aberdeen” on the card)
- Reference to Rose and Martha in Before the Flood
- Flashback to Donna in The Girl Who Died
- Reference to Harry Sullivan in The Zygon Inversion
- The scene with the Doctor learning about the Brig’s death (that was a huge thing!) in The Wedding of River Song
- The Brig actually showing up (ditto) as a Cyberman in Death in Heaven
- The aforementioned picture of Susan
- The aforementioned Movellans
- The aforementioned sonic screwdrivers and TARDIS sign
- The return of John Simm’s Master, as seen in the trailer
- The existence of Kate Stewart
I am thoroughly convinced that Moffat has been using his tenure to rewrite / overwrite aspects of Russell T. Davies’ reboot of the Doctor (specifically, the character, and his relationships with his companions) with which he disagrees.
And even though his attempts at rewriting have often been baroque and awkward, I’m still grateful. Because Moffat has been using his power to do the things I wish I could do (except sit Davies down and give him a stern lecture on the writer’s covenant with the audience).
And of all the things Davies did, I’ve disagreed with nothing so violently (as in feeling slightly sick to my stomach every time I think of it) as Ten’s Mind-wipe of Donna.
The scene at the end of “Hell Bent” was a 90-degree turn away from that horror, because Moffat introduced the element of mutual consent (and the fact that the tables were turned as to whose mind actually got wiped). But the scene at the end of “The Pilot” was the other 90-degree that the Doctor needed to make to redeem his character.
Because he heard a woman’s “No!” and respected it.
Which is one example of why it frustrates me no end when I see fans complaining that Moffat “hates women.”
also you guys DO remember that Donna’s memory wipe was in order to save her life, right? it wasn’t for shits and giggles, she was literally going to DIE if he didn’t wipe her memory. still shitty that she didn’t consent, but at least they didn’t wipe her memory because her and ten’s friendship was too dangerous or whatever.
That’s not how it works. Fiction isn’t created in a vacuum. RTD didn’t sit down to write Journey’s End and go “Oh man! Donna has somehow gotten herself into a situation where her choices are mindwipe or death! Guess I have no choice but to mindwipe her whilst she begs for that not to happen, having clearly stated she finds death the better option.” Nope. He chose to put her in that situation and he chose to write her out of it that way. There were countless ways to write Donna/Catherine Tate out of the show. He could’ve had her take her new superpowers and go to live on a far-off planet, he could’ve had her join Rose on the parallel Earth, hell, he could’ve had her regenerate into a new body if he was that desperate. He didn’t do any of those things.
There is NO SITUATION, or none I can think of, where a ‘but’ should ever come after the words “She didn’t consent”.
honestly……… no more clara references……… that’s enough……………
And he could have literally reminisced about the fact that he did that to donna. it hurt him a lot a you know. Just for one second he realised how wiping Bill’s memories would affect him – can you imagine him having to go through all that again? I swear to shit when Bill told him to think about how he would feel, he literally thought about this exchange
“Donna I was just going”
“Yeah. see ya.”
i mean knowing moffat, he simply refuses make references to things that he didn’t create, so
but honestly that would’ve been a great Donna flashback.
Bill keeps begging him to not wipe her memory, and all of a sudden we flash to black and white, back to that moment between Donna and Ten, with no audio other than Bill’s pleads as the scene of Donna’s own pleads plays out.
we flash back to our current moment, and the Doctor quickly pulls his hands back. “get out”, he says quietly, trying not to let it known that his voice is quavering.
to be fair, the line was “imagine how you’d feel if someone did this to you”, as in if you had your memory wiped, so honestly clara’s theme did fit better than donna’s moment
im also convinced that for him to have considered wiping bill’s memory in the first place he had to have been blocking donna or something
actually, it doesn’t fit the situation better.
if my memory serves correct, twelves memory wipe was consensual, while donna’s was not. twelve wanted to wipe bill’s memory, and she begged him not to, much like how donna begged the doctor not to do the same.
and even when she says, “imagine how you’d feel if someone did this to you”, he CAN’T remember his own memory wipe, he DOESN’T remember it. so that moment was just to tug at the heartstrings of the viewers, and he doesn’t have the memory of clara and his own memory wipe in order to use that experience in order to decide not to wipe her memory. it JUST BARELY makes sense, if that moment truly makes sense at all.
it would have made much more sense if bill had continued to beg him to not wipe her memory, and the doctor had remembered how donna had begged the same, and how badly wiping her memory hurt him, which would make him decide against wiping bill’s memory.
so it’s an example of the situation not truly fitting, moffat refusing to callback to anything that isn’t 100% of his creation and/or design, and moffat not really making any sense.
12 does remember that his memory was wiped.
When something goes missing, you can always recreate it by the hole it left. I know her name was Clara. I know we travelled together. I know that there was an Ice Warrior on a submarine and a mummy on the Orient Express. I know we sat together in the Cloisters and she told me something very important, but I have no idea what she said. Or what she looked like. Or how she talked. Or laughed. There’s nothing there. Just nothing.
He knows what it feels like to be missing something.
Whereas if he’d been comparing the situation to Journey’s End, he would’ve wiped her mind anyway then found some rain to feel sorry for himself in.
“Moffat refuses to reference things he didn’t create” is a really fucking weird thing to say about an episode that prominently features a photograph of Susan
I’d say it’s not even a fucking weird thing to say. I’d just go all in and say it’s fucking idiotic.
look he knows his memory was wiped but he doesn’t remember it
re: clara references: i really just did not like her as a companion but the ghost of rose did linger for a really long time so it’s not unprecedented … i do agree donna would have been the better reference there though and like i don’t fucking know why after donna the doctor who force mind wipe someone so i’m blaming moffat
and for the record moffat does entirely ignore cannon his doesn’t create. even cannon he does create lmao okay like susan is there fucking sure because she’s not new who honestly catch him references anything from new who he didn’t create ever? no. besides, he wasn’t the one that brought sarah jane back. moffat has his head so far up his own ass and that sentence is true as shit not only does he not reference things he doens’t create he borderline refuses to admit they even happened or held any source of narrative importance (an example here, if we are being petty, could be the doctor on mind wiping and donna) and sometimes just writes them as though they didn’t happen (literally countless examples)
References from specifically RTD’s Doctor Who that featured in Moffat’s series (With images and gifs this time, as I have them with me and I’m bored)-
Holograms of all the past Doctors, including Nine and Ten, in The Eleventh Hour:
Magpie Electricals seen in The Beast Below:
Nine and Ten (and Rose too, apparently, though I haven’t got a shot of her) seen (briefly) in flashback in The Lodger:
A ton of past villains, including RTD’s Judoon, in The Pandorica Opens:
RTD-era TARDIS featured very prominently in The Doctor’s Wife:
Holograms of Rose, Martha and Donna in Let’s Kill Hitler, there to give the Doctor guilt and remind him what he’s capable of doing to his companions:
Rose and Jack both mentioned in The Wedding of River Song as reasons the Doctor doesn’t want to die:
(who made those original gifs?)
Ten, RTD’s creation, written by Moffat in Day of the Doctor. Keeps his last words “I don’t want to go” as the last words ever said by him on screen:
Rose/Bad Wolf:
The War Doctor seen regenerating into Nine (Moffat on that scene):
A wall of past companions and friends, including some pretty obscure RTD-era ones like Erina Magambo:
The relationship between the Doctor and Elizabeth I, something RTD created back in “The Shakespeare Code” and Moffat carried on (now we know why she hated him so much in TSC. He never went back for her!)
Clara views some past companions in a Moffat-written minisode:
The references to where the Twelfth Doctor got his face:
Reference to Rose and Martha in Before the Flood:
Flashback to Donna in The Girl Who Died, inspiring the Doctor to save Ashildr (this was not a small part of the episode):
(You want a Donna reference that works really well? There it is. After thinking of her, he saves another woman to make himself feel better, dooming her to a life she doesn’t want. He never learns.)
Reference to Jack Harkness (co-created by RTD with Moffat himself, but still) in The Girl Who Died:
And finally we’re due for the return of John Simm’s Master, as seen in the trailer:
Soo… there’s that. (Sorry for the long post). But one other thing I haven’t seen mentioned? Doctor Who is for children. I bring this up a lot because everyone constantly forgets it. The audience Moffat has been writing for for the past couple of years were not actually alive yet when “Rose” aired. They probably have, at best, a passing familiarity with Donna. To them, Nine is just another Doctor. Rose is just a random pretty lady with sparkly eyes.
That all these references to RTD’s era are in there anyway says rather a lot I think.
Whenever I hear that old chestnut about “lol superwholock and its queerbaiting” I always want to ask “…have you actually watched Doctor Who?” and the answer is usually no, and that makes me sad, that everyone thinks it’s a homophobic mess, because Russell T Davies.
Like, I have my issues with Russell T Davies (oh boy, do I have my issues) but back in 2005 he did something huge with Doctor Who, which was use it to – being gay himself – completely and utterly normalize queer relationships on British TV. And he did it really well and he did it really loudly, to the extent that you had homophobes both online and in the media complaining about his ‘gay agenda’ on pretty much a weekly basis. By the time the Doctor and Jack kissed in The Parting of the Ways, it was sort of cemented that Yes, Gay and Bi People Had A Place In Doctor Who Now. (Doctor Who has actually had a “gay following” since at least the 80s, but it really seems to be all but forgotten these days, although maybe not in the UK?)
And I know that people are right at this moment gearing up to type “That all went away with Moffat’s era, though” but it…mostly didn’t? Madame Vastra and Jenny were introduced and ended up a loving lesbian couple who faced down monsters constantly and yet remained alive. Clara and River both made allusions to relationships with women that revealed them to be bisexual. (Even though the show still hasn’t ever said the word, sigh.) Don’t get me wrong, this all sure as hell wasn’t/isn’t perfect – the T is still mostly missing from the LGBT representation the show has and that’s just for starters – but it was such a big, awesome deal at the time, it’s still making waves now even.
Essentially, it just seems a real shame that all the things Russell T Davies did for Doctor Who, and for questioning kids have just been forgotten, smushed together with a couple of other shows and completely dismissed. Because he really fought hard for it. Remember that lesbian adaptation of A Midsummer Night’s Dream that everyone rightly adored when it aired on the BBC? That wouldn’t have happened without Davis first setting the groundwork with Doctor Who.
I’ve given up on Torchwood. I’m having a mini strike. I’m watching Supernatural on ITV2 instead. Those Supernatural boys turn me into a teenage girl. They’re literally sooo handsome. OMG!!!
Like, Cassandra is ambiguously to probably intended to be trans, and she’s also built on the premise that people who have a lot of plastic surgery are vain, horrible people.
…
Like, I really do enjoy the episode, and I doubt Davies actually thought that particular implication through, but damn.
I remember back in 2005, reading on Gallifrey Base that exact complaint from a trans person. TEOTW is still one of my favourite episodes, but RTD really dropped the ball on that one, even if he did try and make Cassandra more sympathetic later.
